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Kas lemia high skilla gaminge ir daugiau apie competitive zaidimus.

2013-02-12 15:05:57
Blogas: LOL
Sveiki skaitytojai, musu lietuvos league of legends bendruomenes forume, manes paklause vienas zmogus kai ko. Atsakyma idesiu cia blogo pavidalo, nes gavau atsiliepima kad tai gali pravers ir kitiems zmonems :]

Is karto perspeju, lietuviu kalba bus tragiska ir klaiki, tad kantrybes skaitant!


GoleMauskas rašė:
karaliau, pasakyk kas lemia vadinama 'high skilla' geiminge? nesvarbu kokioj rusy, kad ir sachmatuose? o jei snekant apie lola tik protas? Greiciausiai daugumos high elo scrubu 'skilla' lemia high elo draugu kompanija ir siektiek informacijos? Ar tiesiog geiminti aukstu lygiu yra igimta? Panasiai kaip verslininku bus nebettkas, taip ir high skilled geimeriu nebetkas? idomi dilema, butu idomus tavo issamus komentaras is asmenines ir nemenkos patirties, kas manau butu idomu daugeliui cia.

Karalius rašė:
Na pradesiu atsakyt i sita klausima papasakodamas istorija fiktyvia.

Susitiko du draugai, vienas tuo tarpu zaide saskem per interneta. Kitas draugas niekad nebuvo mates saskiu nezino taisykliu ir nezino kas tai per zaidimas. Jis jo paklausia, ka cia zaidi per nesamone?
Gauna atsakyma, paaiskinima taisykles, gauna atsakyma kad tai begalo paprastas ir nesudetingas zaidimas, tai koks idomumas ji zaist?
Tie patys draugai susitinka kita diena, tas kuris suzinojo taisykles pries tai pastebi kad jo draugas specialiai atidave viena savo saske oponentui. Ir ta akimirka, jo smegenyse pasisuko varztas ir jis suprato, kad viskas yra siek tiek sudetingiau negu atrodo is pirmo zvilgsnio.

istorija tesiasi panasiai, kiekviena diena jie susitinka, draugas kuris nezinojo apie saskes, pradeda suprast daugiau ir daugiau apie zaidima, kuris atrode is pirmo zvilgsnio toks paprastas.

Moralas istorijos, kiekvienas zaidimas turi savo gyli (angliskai vadinama "depth").
Saskiu taisykles galima ismokti per minute, o kad ismokti zaisti prireiks daugiau laiko. Ta pati zmones sako apie daug zaidimu, pokeri taip pat. "5 minutes to learn, a lifetime to master".

Dabar kad atsakyti i klausima: "kas lemia high skilla gaminge".

Priklauso nuo zaidimo. Vienam zaidime reikes vienokio skill-seto (tam tikru igudziu rinkinio) kitam reikes kito. Bet dabar imam konkrecius pavyzdzius.

Counter-Strike.
Zaidejas ismoksta taisykles per minute. Kiekviena rounda atsirandi savo bazej, tikslas uz CT ginti A/B bombos plantus, tikslas uz T padeti bomba arba uzmusti visus CT.

Zaidejas pradeda zaist, pats pirmas dalykas kuri jis ismoks, tai map'a. Pirma diena palakstys aklai, antra diena jau zinos kur kaip nueit ir kaip tas mapas atrodo. t.y. gaus informacijos.
Veliau prades suprast kurie ginklai geresni kurie prastesni. t.y. gaus daugiau informacijos.
Dar veliau zaidejas pamatys kad nepataiko i priesus taip gerai kaip noretus, ir tada prasideas treniravimas taiklumo. T.y. mechaniniu igudziu tobulinimas.

Prasukam laika pusmeti/metus i prieki. Zaidejas zino visus mapus, turi neblogos informacijos apie visus mapus, visus ginklus, geras vietas is kuriu geriau pulti/gintis. Patreniravo savo taikluma tai ir mechaninis skillas neblogas.

Susiranda komanda kad pamegintu zaist turnyrus, nueina ir pralosia sausai prie random komanda. Kame problema?
Problema paprasta, pralose 5 roundus, tapo demotyvuotu, nusimine, supyko ant kazko, susipyko su komanda zaidima pralose po 5kto roundo.

Tada supranta, kad vien mechaninio skillo ir neblogu ziniu toli grazu neuzteks kad laimet pries komandas.
Supranta kad reikes dar ir nemazai laiko praleist kad galetu zaist su kitais zmonem komandoj.
Tada po to, kad reikes daug dirbti ties savo charakteriu kad sugebeti nenuliusti kai zaidimas nesiseka, sugebet islaikyt savo emocini vidurki ir tada kai visas pasaulis griuna ant taves.

Po dar vieneriu metu, dabar jau aisku su visai kita komanda, zaidzia turnyre ir jau truputi geriau, laimi pries prastesnes komandas, kurios bus "metus atsilikusios" taciau sutinka komanda kuri zaidzia geriau ir vel pralaimi i vienus vartus. Kas atsitiko si karta? atrodo morale komandoj buvo nebloga, visi stenges, kodel pralose?

O pasirodo lemiamuose momentuose zaidime, viena rounda jis pats, kita rounda komandos draugas netalaike itampos, spaudimo ir padare klaida kurios normaliai nepadarytu. Vis del to turnyras vyksta gyvai, buvo zmoniu pasaliniu kurie stovejo uz nugaros ir ziurejo. Zaidejai jaute dideli spaudima.

Praeis daug laiko ir dar daug turnyru, kol nustos drebeti rankos, kai sugebesi susikaupti simtu procentu i zaidima o ne i aplinka.

Tad atsakau i klausima, kas lemia "high skilla" geiminge.
Informacija, mechaninis skillas, patirtis, charakterio stiprumas/emocinis stabilumas.

Tarp geriausiu pasaulio komandu, vyksta kova, kurie praktikuosis ta extra valanda, kurie praktikuosis ta extra savaite kad igautu siek tiek daugiau mechaninio skillo, ar informacijos, ar isstudijave zaidime kazkaip apgudrautu oponentus.
Bet cia kalba eina apie geriausias pasaulio komandas, iki to lygio, kelias sunkus ir tolimas.


Pakalbam apie toki zaidima kaip starcrafta.
Zaidimas zaidziamas vienas pries viena, taciau kaip ir kituose zaidimuose, pirma reikia informacijos, mechaninio skillo ir patirties.
Mechaninio skillo starcrafte reikia DAUG daugiau negu kad pvz counter-strike.
Cia ir pasireiskia tai ka sakiau kad kiekvienam zaidimui reikes skirtingo skill-seto.

Kalbant apie league of legends, bus panasu i counter strike. Tai yra komandinis zaidimas. Reikes informacijos, reikes mechaninio skillo, reikes patirties.
Tada reikes ismokti zaisti su komanda, ir t.t.
Reikes labai daug zaisti visas roles kad suprasti kaip veikia zaidimas.

Beje geras pavizdys kad high elo realiai nereiskia nieko yra Acer (jei neklystu ir nemaisau, tie visi lord'ai kurie top soloq elo turejo pries LCS quali).
Ju manageris sake, kad jie visi 5 BELEKAIP drebejo pries kiekviena matcha. Jiems visiems tai buvo pirmas/antras lan turnyras. Jie visi belekaip bijojo, nervavos ir tai jiems neleido zaist savo zaidimo.

Man asmeniskai, tas dalykas vien yra daug lengviau. As lanuose dalyvaves nuo 2004 metu. Rankos jau senai nebedreba, o counter-strike teko ne viena ir ne du kartus bus "paskutiniu gyvu" "paskutini lemiama rounda".


Dabar dar atsakysiu i klausima ar betkas gali geiminti, ar betkas gali but verslininku ir ar tai yra igimta. Kiti dar tai vadina "talentu".
As netikiu talentu. Talentas tai yra sunkus ir ilgas darbas idetas.
Kazkada ziurejau tv laida ar dokumentika nebepamenu jau, apie didziausius "talentus" ivairiu zaidimu, golfo, muzikantu ivairiu ir panasiai.
Pasigilinus paaiskeja kad Tiger Wood'sas zaisti golfa pradejo 2 metu. Visokie muzikantai legendos, dainininkai legendos nuo 2-5 metu pradejo groti, dainuoti ir panasiai.

Dabar pasiziurim kad ir i mane. As zinoma saves nelyginu su jais visais :D bet kaip pavyzdi. As va dabar "Gerai zaidziu" geroj komandoj pries geriausias komandas.
Talentas? ne.
10 metu competitive zaidimu patirtis.
Ir tai nereiskia kad as 10 metu zaidziau wormsus su draugais, ar counter strike masofkei ar lol'e normalus ir panasiai. As kalbu apie competitive zaidima. 10 metu as stengiaus kuo geriau ismokt zaist counter strike, tada pokeri, tada league of legends ir panasiai. Tai reiskia kad 10 metu mano smegenys ieskojo budu kaip greiciau, efektyviau ismokt kazka padaryt uz kitus zaidejus kad laimeciau pries juos.
Sitaip veikia mano smegenys. Pries keleta metu su drauge eidavom zaist pool'o i viena bilijardine. Pirma karta pazaidem for fun. Tada as budamas as turiu ismokt zaist geriau, ziurejau video, ieskojau informacijos. Tada ejau vienas praktikuotis keleta kartu (gerint mechaninius igudzius). Zinoma, as net neketinau but belekokiu zaideju, bet esme pagaunat, mano smegenys veikia taip. jei kazka darai, daryk gerai.
Zinoma dabar jau poolo zaist nebeinam, nes draugei atsibodo pralosinet.
O dar nepadeda ir tai, kad as pralaimet nesugebu normaliai ir pradedu nervuotis, analizuot, gilintis kas kodel ir kaip pralaimejau.

Tad ir zaidejais, ir verslininkais ir muzikantais gali buti betkas, bet ne visi. O kodel? todel kad visi zmones skirtingi ir visus traukia skirtingi dalykai. O per prievarta jei kazka darysi, nesigaus nieko.
Verslininkai geri buna todel, kad nuo jaunystes juos traukia tie dalykai ir jie apie tai galvoja, igauna daugiau praktikos/patirties/informacijos negu kiti zmones.
Mane trauke zaidimai, nuo ~7-9 metu nuo pirmo zilitono, mane trauke zaidimai. As apie juos galvojau, igavau daug daugiau praktikos informacijos ir patirties negu dauguma kitu. Tada mane trauke competitive zaidiamai, ta pati istorija.

Igimta? ne, tiesiog tai buvo ka as norejau daryt ir kas mane trauke.
O dabar pastatykit mano drauga pvz kuriam patinka teise. Priverskit ji 10 metu zaist zaidimus. Manot rezultatas bus tas pats? ne. Nes jie nenores zaist, negalvos apie zaidima, nesistenks ir panasiai.

Svarbu gyvenime sekti savo sirdi. Jei darysi tai ka nori daryti, jei idesi daug darbo, netingesi, bus rezultatai. Kas tai bebutu, ka bedarytum.

Tik zinokit, kad rezultatai neateis greitai. kazkas pasake kad but tikrai "geru" kazkokioj srity, reikia ideti bent 10 000 valandu i ta sriti. O tai yra daug valandu...


end of post.

originalus postas:
www.leagueoflegends.lt/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9&start=2640

daugiau apie 10k valandu daugiau info:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_%28book%29
blog.zintro.com/2012/08/10/10000-hour-rule-malcolm-gladwells-10000-hours-of-practice-theory-from-outliers-visualized/

Visus updates apie mane ir mano zaidimus galit rast cia:
https://www.facebook.com/LoLKaralius
Už kiekvieną savo BLOG'o įrašą, autorius atsako asmeniškai. Šie įrašai nėra susiję su eSports.lt oficialiomis skelbiamomis naujienomis.
Parašė: Slayer [ Perskaitė: 7881 ] [ Komentarų: 16 ]
Puslapiai:  1
HavaN [PM]
13 02 12 15:15 #1
Nice patiko pasiskaityt, mintys išdėstytos puikiai:]
maniacman [PM]
13 02 12 15:57 #2
idomus
[05]|acp [PM]
13 02 12 16:16 Redaguota: 2013-02-12 16:17 #3
Problema paprasta, pralose 5 roundus, tapo demotyvuotu, nusimine, supyko ant kazko, susipyko su komanda zaidima pralose po 5kto roundo.
Kiek pamenu tai ir pats karstakosis esi.
Šiaip manau, kad dauguma lietuvos konteristu jau ta 10k valandu virsijo, bet kaip rezultatu ner taip ner.
Slayer [PM]
13 02 12 16:30 #4
#3 is dalies, as visada buvau smarkus karstakosis dar ir dabar esu kai reikia treniruotis ar kazkas nededa darbo ar kazko nedaro kaip sutarem etc.
Realiai lan\'e tokiu problemu neturejau niekad dar :]
DZIO9|watafak [PM]
13 02 12 17:03 #5
#3 parodyk bent viena kuris 10k valandu virsijo, per steam stats.
fel0n [PM]
13 02 12 17:47 Redaguota: 2013-02-12 17:54 #6
tai 10k per steam stats kas kita, gi nevisi - beveik nei vienas nepradeda nuo Steamed cs, kiti metus kiti net visa laika ir pralosia masofkei, net negirdeje apie steam taigi tas 10k tai steam virsijus 5k jau tikrai busi ta cs virst 10k suloses, aisku kiek rimtai tu losei kol ta steam gavai irgi neaisku jei ten botus uzsimerkes drozei tai ta laika pralosta taip tik minusuot is viso.
kkoult [PM]
13 02 12 19:40 Redaguota: 2013-02-12 19:44 #7
ne visai sutikciau del talento kodel vienas dalykas vienam zmogui iseina geriau negu kitam? nors abu stengiasi? O siaip mldc ydomu buvo skaityt :)
Veeker [PM]
13 02 12 19:42 #8
joo pries darant kazkoki dalyka turi gerai pagalvot ko is jo nori ir tik tada leisti prie jo savo laika talentu negimstama talentu tampama :)
Devy [PM]
13 02 12 20:23 #9
Geras blogas, idomiai skaitesi
DZIO9|watafak [PM]
13 02 12 21:12 #10
#6 ;))))))))
since_ [PM]
13 02 12 23:00 Redaguota: 2013-02-12 23:00 #11
įdomios mintys, tikrai negaliu sutikti su viskuo, tačiau iš esmės yra iš ko pasimokint, apie ką pagalvot.

p.s. nepainiokit 10k valandų žaidimo, su 10k valandų mokinantis žaisti geriau
sDeeCYTO [PM]
13 02 13 16:33 #12
tikrai idomus blogas :)
1g|NNt [PM]
13 02 13 16:33 #13
nice blog
Sakkreth [PM]
13 02 16 22:04 Redaguota: 2013-02-16 22:07 #14
Sorry double post.
Sakkreth [PM]
13 02 16 22:07 #15
Talentas + idetas darbas itakoja skill, taciau idetas darbas kur kas daugiau.
LANt|pastuh [PM]
13 02 22 17:58 #16
Neisivaizduoju kaip cia patekau,bet galiu pasakyti jog tikrai paprasta ismokti,bet pilnai perprasti ir suprasti technika uztrunka n laiko.
Mano nuomone daugiausiai itakos daro motyvacija ir sugebejimas islikti ramiam t.y. priimti tiek nesekmes tiek pergales, bet niekada nesureiksminti.
Puslapiai:  1
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